Hamilton RAF

[altro]

My latest acquisition arrived today; a Hamilton RAF pilot/navigator's watch from 1974:


This picture was taken by the German collector I bought the watch from - I don't think the camouflage background is RAF-issue.


The back is interesting - most of these RAF (and the British Army version) watches from the 1970's have the full NATO numbers stamped into the back. This is only the second one I have seen with only the MOD numbers without any NATO reference.


This is the movement (I "borrowed" this image from a 1973 Army version but it is I know identical to mine). It is the Hamilton cal. 649 which is in reality an ETA 2750).



Some details:

Hamilton made to MOD (Ministry of Defence) standard 523-8290 during the 1970's. This one is, as you can see from the "74" stamped after the serial number, a 1974 example.

The movement is hacking.

Case width approx 36 mm; thickness approx 10 mm.

The case is a "top-loader" ie the back is integral with the case (one-piece). To access the movement it is necessary to use a "claw" to remove the crystal. Quite how the crown and dial are removed I do not know - any info gratefully received!

I'm looking forward to wearing this beauty - all I can say so far is that it looks even better in real life than in the pictures.

These watches can be an absolute steal - they are priced anywhere from about $200 - $500 depending on your luck. A typical price would be about $200 - $300.

Cheers,

Al

[AntonisCy]

very nice altro.. wear in good health

[Sam]

Nice find! Thanks for sharing.

[mamas]

great find alan.. have been looking at getting a similar vintage piece produced by omega.. but a lot of fakes on the market ..not found one that i like yet! really like this pilot type design.. where these standard spec for RAF? as quite a lot of manuafacturers make almost identical pilots watches....analogous to omega sm300, precista, cwc dive watches for royal navy..
mamas

[mike]

Very cool!

[clifton]

Cool find Altro!! Thanks for sharing!!

A buddy of mine in the British Royal Marines gave me this watch cause he knew I was a watch nut.

Don't have the first clue about all of its details, but after seeing yours makes me want to know more. Looks like a 90's and it's only a quartz, but I'm sure, like yours, it has a cool history.

I see lots of similarities between the dials.


Case back:


Cool fixed lug bar:

[altro]

clifton said:

Cool find Altro!! Thanks for sharing!!

A buddy of mine in the British Royal Marines gave me this watch cause he knew I was a watch nut.

Don't have the first clue about all of its details, but after seeing yours makes me want to know more. Looks like a 90's and it's only a quartz, but I'm sure, like yours, it has a cool history.

I see lots of similarities between the dials.


Case back:


Cool fixed lug bar:

Hi Clifton,

I know a little about these watches but am also learning all the time (and still have a helluva lot to learn about the often complex subject of British military watches....) but here goes......

1. Your watch is not actually a Marines issue watch but is a Royal Navy watch. Ok, how do I know that I hear you ask!! The code "0552" is Royal Navy; 0555 is Royal Marines (W10 is British Army; and 6BB (or 6bb) is RAF).

Now for the tricky bit; obviously the Marines are part of the Navy, so maybe they ran out of "0555" watches and borrowed some "0552's" - I am speculating here but this possibility seems very feasible...

or, something else that is really annoying (to us pedantic WIS's ;D ) and definitely did/maybe still does happen: sometimes these watches go in to stores for a battery change or service etc and are then reissued to a different military service. So although initially they are usually almost always issued to the correct service (Navy, RAF etc) they can be re-issued to someone in one of the other services!

Recently I bid on a supposedly British Army chronograph (a quite scarce 1970's model called a Newmark). I asked the (ex-British Army) seller for the numbers on the back of his watch and they began with 6BB which is of course RAF. I emailed him back and said how come? He said he hadn't a clue but that was the watch he was issued with. Then he remembered it had gone in for a service about 3 years after original issue and he was pretty sure it was the exact same watch he sent in, but now that I mentioned it, he wasn't 100% sure.... hmm... so we couldn't be sure whether he had originally, as a soldier, been issued with a 6BB watch that had been intended for an airman; or whether his W10 watch had been switched during maintenance for a 6BB.

Unfortunately someone else was willing to bid too much for it so in the end I didn't win it. I will hopefully get another one though some time.

2. You say your watch looks like a 90's - well, hey see that "90" at the bottom below the serial number??? Yep, you guessed it - that's the year of manufacture and/or supply to the military

3. Yeah the dials or yours and mine are very similar. Essentially this design goes back to the sweep-second hand RAF pilot's and navigator's watches of the 1950's - the classic of this design was the 1953 Omega version. (The concurrent IWC's and JLC's issued from 1948 onwards were of a slightly different design).

If anyone can add any info to what I have written please do - thanks!

Cheers,

[altro]

mamas said:

great find alan.. have been looking at getting a similar vintage piece produced by omega.. but a lot of fakes on the market ..not found one that i like yet! really like this pilot type design.. where these standard spec for RAF? as quite a lot of manuafacturers make almost identical pilots watches....analogous to omega sm300, precista, cwc dive watches for royal navy..
mamas

Hi mamas,

The specs for these watches were defined by the Ministry Of Defence (Yep I know we Brits can't spell "defense" )

So the brand is kinda secondary in the sense that the MOD defines very precisely what they want; and the watch manufacturers have to build and supply that item according to the contract. The MOD may very well (and often did/does) order exactly the same item from two or more suppliers. That is why you will see virtually identical watches that even have the same numbers stamped into the back, made by different manufacturers. My Hamilton which began this thread is more commonly seen with CWC on the dial (and stamped into the ETA movement).

An interesting twist on this is the IWC Mk 12 and Mk 15 aviator's watches from the 1990s.

The "Mk" or "mark", ie the "version" is a British military reference. The Mk VII (7) was an RAF watch used in the early 1940s and made mostly by Omega but also by Longines. Then there were the Mk VIII's (I'm not sure about Mk IX's but presume they must also exist). The Mk X was made by IWC and maybe some others near the end of the war and had a small seconds sub-dial at 6 o'clock.

Then the classic IWC (and JLC) Mk 11's (Roman numerals were dropped by the MOD for this version) were first issued in 1948.

IWC did not supply any more watches to the MOD after this and much later in the 1980's or 1990's (not sure of the exact year) IWC decided to make a new aviator's watch and based it on the design of their MOD Mk 11. So what do they call it - yep, the Mark 12! This "mark" was never an IWC designation; it was an MOD/RAF spec.

I think I've rambled on too long - I'm gonna hit the Post button......

Cheers,

[Sam]

Wow Alan...thanks for all the details. You obviously have a passion for military watches.

[GMF]

Interesting how even a military watch was affected by the "styles" typcial of 70s watches. Congrats on a great find. I didn't realize Hamilton made watches for the British military forces.

[mamas]

thanks for the information alan.. certainly very interesting to read. If i run across any omega pilots watches which i have been looking for, may pass them by you for advice.. as you seem to know quite a lot about this great group of vintages.
all the best
mamas

[jeanmichel]

Alan

what is the difference between this hamilton and the CWC ? both where issued ? ... I have on my side the CWC version (sorry no pics) but they seems to be very close
your input on topic would be very welcome
cheers
JM

[altro]

jeanmichel said:

Alan

what is the difference between this hamilton and the CWC ? both where issued ? ... I have on my side the CWC version (sorry no pics) but they seems to be very close
your input on topic would be very welcome
cheers
JM

Hi JM,

I didn't know you had one of these - is it the W10 Army or the 6BB RAF version?

Essentially there is no difference at all between the Hamilton and the CWC watches; they are both made exactly and rigorously to the MOD spec. Of course there must be very tiny differences but nothing you can really notice. They both use ETA 2750 movements, each with their own brand stamped into the movement. Hamilton removed the "2750" and stamped their own calibre 649 but CWC left the original ETA "2750".

However, I have seen Hamiltons with "GENEVE" under the "HAMILTON" on the dial and also as mentioned in my original post, my example does not have the NATO numbers which most Hamiltons and all CWC's I have seen do have. I have no idea why a small number of Hamiltons do not have the full set of numbers.

I hope this helps,

Cheers,

[altro]

gmf said:

Interesting how even a military watch was affected by the "styles" typcial of 70s watches. Congrats on a great find. I didn't realize Hamilton made watches for the British military forces.

[Answer edited to include new info]

Hi Gary,

Yes, American watches were supplied to the RAF quite early during WWII by Waltham and Bulova. These were navigator's watches as supplied to the US Army Air Force and were overstamped on the back with British Air Ministry codes and supplied to RAF aircrew (you could still see the American codes underneath).

Later, Hamiltons were supplied made to RAF specifications and design in the 1940's and maybe 50's. I am not sure whether they were first supplied during or post-WWII.

But the Hamilton company was acquired by SSIH (forerunner of Swatch group) in late 1971, so my 1974 example is a actually a Swiss watch, not American.

Cheers,

[jeanmichel]

Alan
I have not so much details about the watch , Marie (my wife ...for the other readers) likes it very much so I offered her one some times ago : As soon as I can I'll post pics of the watch here so you can help me a little bit with the identification
I bought it on ebay UK and was told by the seller this was a RAF version but as soon as I am far from an expert on thoses military UK watches I would prefer you to help me to ID it
cheers
JM