"Other" Watch Brands - Part 1

[Adam]

Even though I dont agree with the prices, I respect Micheal Kobold for what he has done. Its pretty impressive that a 19 year old could start a watch company that has done as well as it has.

I wish I would have got a seal or surveyor at the "ground floor" I was looking at my 2005 wristwatch annual and most of the kobolds were under $1500

Its too bad the prices went the direction they did; a surveyor for 2k seems like a decent price, but 6k is completely ridiculous

[Ben]

adams said:

Even though I dont agree with the prices, I respect Micheal Kobold for what he has done. Its pretty impressive that a 19 year old could start a watch company that has done as well as it has.

I wish I would have got a seal or surveyor at the "ground floor" I was looking at my 2005 wristwatch annual and most of the kobolds were under $1500

Its too bad the prices went the direction they did; a surveyor for 2k seems like a decent price, but 6k is completely ridiculous

I agree. Michael Kobold has done well in a tough business and I think his designs are quite interesting, and for the most part, quite original. This is even more impressive.

Well, to maybe take this conversation in new direction...

Is the $6K price of the Polar Surveyor ridiculous because it's a watch - or - because it's a Kobold and not a more "recognized" brand? Don't get me wrong, I think it's too high myself, but then I find the $5K price for a Submariner just as ludicrous (perhaps even more so as most of its R&D was done 40 years ago).

I think that Kobold could give as many reasons (or we could use the word "excuses" if we want to add some sarcasm) for their pricing structure as Rolex gives for theirs. They might say that they are a small company, with high demand, so their pricing reflects scarcity. Another reason might be that while the Polar Surveyor uses a Valjoux 7750 as its base, the fact that it has two added complications, that to my knowledge nobody else has on a tool chronograph, classifies this as "heavily modified." They will certainly also say that their watch is made to exacting standards for use in harsh polar environments (anti-magentic, accurate under extreme cold etc.). I've never seen the Polar Surveyor in the flesh, but I did see a Soarway Diver and the quality was as good as any watch I've ever had in my hands.

Plus - you couple that with marketing efforts, celebrity endorsements and such, and your watches can go up in price 300%. In fact, these efforts probably account for most of the price increases - not just for Kobold, but for most makers.

It's amazing, and sad for us WIS types, how many watch makers are following the Rolex pricing playbook.

-Ben

[Archer]

If you don't mind me exploring the new direction a bit, and offering some opposing viewpoints. Not arguing, but just maybe giving a different perspective.....

behrman said:

Is the $6K price of the Polar Surveyor ridiculous because it's a watch - or - because it's a Kobold?

Neither for me. It's that the prices of the brand in general have shot up a large amount in a very short time.

behrman said:

Don't get me wrong, I think it's too high myself, but then I find the $5K price for a Submariner just as ludicrous (perhaps even more so as most of the R&D was done 40 years ago).

But the price increase of the Rolex has been far more gradual. But in principle I agree that it's too much for a Sub.

behrman said:

I think that Kobold could give as many reasons (or we could use the word "excuses" if we want to add some sarcasm) for their pricing structure as Rolex gives for theirs. They might say that they are a small company, with high demand, so their pricing reflects scarcity.

Regarding the Kobold supply/demand point, I guess it's a chicken or egg thing. I look at it this way (just an example and I have no real facts to back it up as these are just my rambling thoughts):

Let's say they made that watch some time ago and the retail was $2K. They are probably making at least $500 per unit. Do they continue to charge this amount when their watches become more popluar, or move up-market (which they did) and now this watch is $6K per unit? Great business approach, because you have a lot more margin per unit, less inventory carrying costs, etc. All good for them. So are the watches scarce because they are popular and this drives the price up, or because the company made a decision to keep the business smaller and charge more per unit?

behrman said:

Another reason might be that while the Polar Surveyor uses a Valjoux 7750 as its base, the fact that it has two added complications, that to my knowledge nobody else has on a tool chronograph, classifies this as "heavily modified." They will certainly also say that their watch is made to exacting standards for use in harsh polar environments (anti-magentic, accurate under extreme cold etc.). I've never seen the Polar Surveyor in the flesh, but I did see a Soarway Diver and I would certainly put it in the Rolex category as far as quality goes.

I guess it depends on what you consider "heavily modified." I don't know what Kobold does to this movement (other than the obvious of adding more features) and that was my point in the earlier post I made about this way of expressing a modified ETA. Unless I really know what has been done the term "heavily modified" doesn't really mean anything tangible to me. So they added the GMT function, but did they install a free sprung balance? Change the hair spring to a Breguet overcoil? Modify the auto winding mechanism? Increase the power reserve? Maybe Kobold says openly what they have done to these movements (I haven't checked personally) but most companies leave you completely in the dark regarding what they have done to the ETA base.

So even with the complications they have added, did this involve redesigning a large portion of the movement from the ground up, or did they have someone else develop a module that is added on top? To me these are vastly different in what it takes to accomplish. Without knowing those details, it's hard to know if the prices are in any way justified on a technical level.

Maybe the watch is something truly special as it's price would indicate, but without knowing for sure what makes up the whole, it certainly "appears" to be a bit of a cash grab to me.

Just my thoughts.....

[Ben]

avalon said:

Maybe the watch is something truly special as it's price would indicate, but without knowing for sure what makes up the whole, it certainly "appears" to be a bit of a cash grab to me.

I was just speculating and throwing out some discussion points. Actually, I agree with you. I've always been amazed at the wild pricing differences between watches that are, for the most part, using the same mechanicals and perhaps even some other parts.

I think that in the long run it doesn't matter what I think a particular watch is actually worth (this is so subjective anyway). It all boils down to what the market will bear and it seems that the market will bear $6K for a Polar Surveyor and $5K for a Submariner. I just have to decide whether it's worth it to me.

[Archer]

behrman said:

I was just speculating and throwing out some discussion points.

Me too! Great discussion and great post to start this off. I love these sorts of topics!

[atomic]

And then Seiko can offer 316L SS mechanical watches for under $300 a unit and IMHO they are as good as anything costing ten times that. Like my Monster still runs just outside COSC, is waterproof to 200m and has lume that puts most Swiss tool watches to shame, and I paid $100 for it used.

On a similar note, Avalon made me a watch made from parts sourced via the 'net. The watch is beautifully finished, has a long PR, is VERY accurate and with strap and deployant, cost me under $500... and I dare say if there was a big name company on the dial, the watch could have an extra zero at the end (by Canuck buck standards ).

As noted above, it's a terribly subjective topic by putting a value on a watch. Bottom line is, I will never sell either of the above cuz they each mean something special to me and I got them from a couple of special friends.

[wasatch]

Here are a few of my personal favorite "other" watches

My grail: The RGM Seven Day



I really like Baumes. Feel free to offer opinions about what you know about them, what you like about them, why you don't like them. My feelings won't be hurt. ;D I just think they are sharp-looking watches.

The 8329:



And the 8693:

[Sam]

Great discussion guys!

[Archer]

I see B&M in the same light as Longines. A company with a great history, that sort of went off track when quartx came along, but is now making quite a nice comeback.

Speaking of Longines, they released this diver at the shows this spring.....very nice!



Now for other brands.....in trouble with lawsuits at the moment, but Muhle has been a brand I thought made some nice watches. This one in particular caught my eye....



Ironically the other company I wanted to mention was the one that brought the action against Muhle, and that's Nomos.....



I really like the clean style. I've never had either of these brands on my wrist, which is the real test, but they sure look nice in photos!

[Ben]

avalon said:

Ironically the other company I wanted to mention was the one that brought the action against Muhle, and that's Nomos.....



I really like the clean style. I've never had either of these brands on my wrist, which is the real test, but they sure look nice in photos!

I like Nomos as well. To me, they have a bit more dress-watch appearance to them than either STOWA or Jörg Schauer but still have that spartan bauhaus design aesthetic to them. I've never seen one in person, but I do like the style of these.

Ahh....so many watches....so little money.

-Ben

[CHIP]

I love that Muhle!!

They had one for sale not long ago on TZ for about 400 bucks and I almost pulled the plug on it. Now I regret not doing it.



I have always been a fan of RGM.
Not only do I find their designs to be to my liking, but to me there is something about having a watch made by a small company that works hard, and basically has to rely on a true WIS for survival.

I really like this one....

[otis]

Great thread guys!

Yes, longines.... I quite like some of their master collection. A longines was the first 'real' watch I bought myself, and the brand still has good spot in my heart. And, as Al said, this year some of their releases are quite nice. A good historic throwback.

Now, onto Kobold. Interestingly enough, there's a DU watch mag called 'Luxe' that has an interview with Michael Kobald, I might scan it today and post it here. Just while it's on topic.
And for the record, I dont really understand their pricing too. I know they are trying to differentiate themselves as a young hip brand, and I guess somehow pricing fits into that. But, for me.... I know this may sound silly. I would much rather pay the money for something like an Omega or Panerai. Even though their movements may not be 100% exclusive. It's the complete package for me. I consider myself somehow who does buy a 'brand', so it's not only the movement, it's the case, design, bracelet, packaging, brand history, brand values etc etc...
Some brands have it, some don't. Just a personal opinion I guess.

[atomic]

otis said:

I would much rather pay the money for something like an Omega or Panerai. Even though their movements may not be 100% exclusive. It's the complete package for me. I consider myself somehow who does buy a 'brand', so it's not only the movement, it's the case, design, bracelet, packaging, brand history, brand values etc etc...
Some brands have it, some don't. Just a personal opinion I guess.

Right on, brudda...

That's what makes horologie so much fun cuz there's something for everyone. Some brands really speak to some, and others can't stand them.

When I had my Memovox, it just struggled for wrist time. And I lusted after a memo long before I wanted a Panerai.. but it couldn't compete.

Another brand I quite like and is a departure from my typical lust for sport watches, is Minerva. Recently brought into the Richemont Group, they also use Unitas movements and makes some really nice, simple but sophisticated (IMO) dress watches.

[hubertc]

I'm a bit hooked on skeleton watches at the moment... I've no idea about this particular company called Schaumburg, but just found them browsing the internet. Probably not something I'd feel comfortable wearing to the office, but hey it sure looks cool!